[MUSIC] What's the influence of grades in our assessment system? And this is the desirable way of giving feedback. >> What we typically do is to give grades. Well, grades are the poorest form of feedback you can get. And particularly, this is true if we talk about complex performances. For example, if you wish to judge someone's communication behavior or academics skills. If you then turn that into a grade, that's basically non-information. It doesn't tell you a lot. >> There is a lot of societal pressure on grades, and I think, too much. All kinds of training programs are very much interested in what the GPA of the student is. All kinds of selection for masters for prestigious universities elsewhere take the grade point average into account. So there is a kind of external reality forcing us to make sure, and that's the way I translate it in my policies, as the director of education, that our grading system needs to be in good shape. >> What we knew from research is that the average grade students acquire in higher education does not reflect very well how much success they have later in the workplace. >> But what's more important for students, to get a grade, or get feedback on their performance? What do they want? >> Students want both. I don't think that students really distinguish that much. It's from an educational perspective that we know that grades actually are very. How do you call those in English? They're not so good for having a higher motivation because students tend in general to say, well, I just need to pass, for example, with a grade. And as soon as students have got grades, a six or a seven or an eight or an A or a B, they are not so much interested any more in, well, what did I do wrong? What do I correct? So from an educational perspective, feedback is much more important and much more better, actually. But to give good feedback and to give timely feedback is, again, very difficult. So in general, say regular lecture type courses, students have to do the work, and then they do the exam, and then they get a grade. And I think that's fine, and they have to study in-between as good as possible on the basis of example exam, test example, task example, worked out task, which is their feedback intermediate. And when you do the final test, well, okay, it's too bad for the feedback. Whereas if you have different forms of assessments, suppose a project, which I like, which I will explain, then there is not only the grade after you finished your project and your [INAUDIBLE]. But there's lots and lots of intermediate feedback during the process, which is obviously much more important than the final grade for a project, and much more helpful, and much more interesting for students to achieve, especially when they get it in timely. And also when the same kind of project, but then in a more complex format, is provided in the year after the projects, and they can really learn from doing projects. So I think, yes, then feedback is much more important. >> Yeah. Is there an option to get rid of grades, then? >> For me, it would not be an option. >> No? >> No. >> Why not? >> I think grades are forced lecturers, as a first argument in favor of grades, to be precise, in how they want to realize their intended learning outcomes. A second important aspect of grading in courses is that it gives you material in hand in your quality assessment across courses. It's just kind of diagnostic to see what happens in a course. For example, when an examination board responsible for quality assurance of assessment looks at the complete tableu of courses and sees that certain courses always have a pass grade of 99% and have a grade point average across students of 8.2 or higher. That's the kind of diagnostic to start thinking about, what is exactly happening in that course? I'm not saying, by the way, that it is wrong. >> Okay. >> Because in some cases, it can be the case that students, it's an elective, for example. Students are very motivated, and then they perform very well. But it can also be an indication that the material is not profound enough for the masters level. And of course, this works the other way around as well. >> Yeah. >> When you have a class, you have seen that class over the years, and that's quite a nice normal distribution of grades. And then all of a sudden, it's skewed, most students failed. Beep. So it's a very important kind of management information. >> So it's an instrument in quality assurance? >> Yeah, not the only one, of course, but definitely an instrument. And a third element in favor of grades is the feedback to students. It's a kind of clear feedback, and it may initiate a reflection, as well as a discussion among students, as well as students coming over to the lecture and saying, I really liked your course. I had all these beautiful examples. And this is just a six. That's just a pass grade. What happened? And then you can explain, okay, you do very well on applying knowledge. But the actual showing that you know your stuff is underdeveloped because you're theoretically still very much in development. >> Yeah, yeah. >> Not saying that you're weak. >> In the Netherlands, we have a lot of grades. We do everything by grade. >> Yeah. >> But that has a lot of side effects, for example, minimalistic performance. Usually, a six is the sufficient. I remember my son when he had a seven, he said, I worked one grade too hard. >> [LAUGH] >> So what's more important for students, that they have a grade, or that they get feedback? >> Yeah, well, we have been asking them that question. And what they respond is depending on the type of test, when it's about knowledge testing, they said, well, a grade is enough. A grade, and the answer models, of course, because I have to check. >> You didn't make a mistake. [LAUGH] >> Yeah, or that your thought about how good you were on the subject corresponds with the outcome. >> Yeah. >> But with us, the knowledge test mostly ends a period where they have been studying a certain subject. So when a period's end, we end with a knowledge test, period ends, and then a new period starts. >> Yes, so it's a wrap up, no feedback or whatever, it's just- >> Yeah, a little feedback, but. And then you start a new period, so subject closed, and we go into the next assessment. >> Yeah, so as long as there's no problem for them? >> No, grade and answering model answers. For skills test, it's a different story, okay? They want to become a good doctor, so they want to develop their skills, the scientifical skills, but also the doctor skills. And our skills test is more like a continuum, not tuck, tuck, tuck, and so subject closed, next, out to continuum. So you're growing. And they want to become good doctor, it demands feedback from us. >> We also know that the provision of feedback in very summative systems doesn't work. Because well, if you pass, who cares? And actually, the learners who need it most ignore the feedback most. [MUSIC]