Hello and welcome back to another UWA podcast. My name is Jane and this is the second installment of two, where we will be chatting to the wonderful Sue Ellson. First time around, we chatted about the candidate experience. This time around, we will be looking at recruitment and social media. Sue is a wonderful linked in specialist. She is an author and an educator and a practitioner. So let us kick off our chat on recruitment and social media. >> Let's move on to talk a little bit about social media now and Linkedin. Because you of course work in the kind of social media Linkedin space. Can you give us some examples of how widely social media spaces are used for recruitment? >> Yeah, absolutely. Well, basically Linkedin has changed the game that there is no doubt in my mind. So before linkedin there was a lot of hotshot recruiters, who if they got you into the job. And you stayed there three months. They earned a truckload of money and it was full of, in my view. An awful lot of just glorified salespeople who didn't care about the candidates. So long as they could convince them to stay in the job for three months, they got paid. And they were on to the next gig. Also, the recruiter is only representing the employer, not the candidate and a lot of people make that mistake. So what's happened with linkedin is now, what recruiters do, is they don't bother writing an ad. And getting candidates and going through that pile of applicants, they search for people on linkedin. So if you don't have a good quality linkedin profile, you simply will not be found. And so you will miss out on those opportunities. So the people who make the effort to update their linkedin profile. And can be found are going to get the better opportunities. And I had a guy who was in some specific nature of tech. And he came to a one hour long seminar that I ran and he updated his linkedin profile. He was getting six calls from recruiters a day after I said, you're going to have to change your profile again. Because you shouldn't be getting six a day- >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. You need to make it more niche. >> You need more niche. And also you need to tell those people to go away unless they meet this criteria. You've gotta keep adjusting it. So, Linkedin is this incredibly powerful tool. I've had a number of employers look for jobs on candidates on job websites, haven't found what they were looking for. And I've given them particular strategy of putting the job on linkedin for free. And then showing them how they can find possible candidates. And inviting those possible candidates to connect and follow with the business. So also, even if that candidate is not interested in the role, asking that person if they would be happy to refer someone. So this is a way of using the technology, combining old school and new school together. Now I live next door to a recruiter and he was looking for a candidate and it turns out this candidate was on linkedin. But he didn't find that candidate on linkedin, he actually had to ring a whole bunch of other people. Until somebody eventually recommended the guy. But they had virtually a blank linkedin profile. So that's why he couldn't be found by the recruiter. So, linkedin is my absolute favorite platform and I believe everybody of every age should have a linkedin profile. And I don't work for them and I'm not paying for [LAUGH] [CROSSTALK] >> I guess you were saying to say, and it's the old school and the new school. With the old school be the sort of the networking feel that you would usually be able to get in sort of a live space. But now that we're all existing in this online world, that networking comes from saying. Can you recommend me to someone else or is there someone else that you might know? Yeah, interesting. Yeah, I guess sometimes you feel like the online world feels more polite. You have to sort of communicate clearly, you don't want anything to be misconstrued. So it's nice to hear that there is scope for that casual kind of engagement that can happen. You can ask people, do you know anyone else, this is a real person at the other end of the computer screen who's responding? >> Absolutely, and what idea was for everybody who applied for this job. I did it on behalf of the employer, I actually wrote to them and I said thank you for your application. We've now chosen a candidate. We welcome you to follow our company and keep an eye on our careers pages of any future positions come up. The number of responses I got was unbelievable. I was so grateful for hearing back. It was really, really good. In terms of the other social media, we've already mentioned applications and tiktok with the others- >> And applications is my favorite word of this entire [LAUGH] interviews and application is the best. [LAUGH] >> It's just and I got snapped and I don't understand that. I've just given, it's just too hard for me but anyway- >> But you'll be missing out on all the applications you gotta fight. >> I just it's not the kind of company I want to work for it. So anyway, obviously a lot of employers will google you before the job interview. Now there's statistics that suggest about 75% of Google before the job and 95% before you get the job. Now there has been a big debate is, can an employer check you out on social media? I think the legal ruling suggests probably not, but obviously a lot of people still do. And look, you meet someone at the party, what are you going to do, google them? I mean, everybody does it. So let's assume that people are going to Google you whether you work at a company. Whether you're going to work at a company, whether you met at a party, it's so if you don't have. If you have a bad reputation online, that's obviously not going to look good for you in that whole recruitment process. So I've made a decision many, many years ago. I do not include my personal life on social media and I don't reference my children. I mean, one woman I saw on facebook said, how do I stop my four year old from wetting the bed mark? I'm thinking how will that six year old feel when he looks at mommy's posts and says. Mommy told the whole world I was wetting my bed at four, it's not going to be a good look. But then there was another woman I met and she'd worked in rock and roll and music industry. And she had drugs and partners and goodness knows what she actually had to change her [LAUGH] name. Because her reputation was so bad online that the only way she could leave her past behind actually changed her name. So what I'm suggesting is if you're a candidate, it's possibly time to tidy up your social media profiles. And don't just think that because you've got extra security only your friends can see it. Because an employer will say, well I know that friend and I'll get that friend to check them out and they'll still see it. So you've pretty much gotta assume that everything you put online is public regardless of your security settings. Because if somebody really wants to find something out, they possibly can. So that's the principle I work on everything I say is public. >> Just make sure that you're putting out a version of yourself that you are okay with people seeing and judging of yourself. >> Yeah, that's right. And look, I still make a stand on things, but I don't beg the government, I always provide solutions, right? That's that's my thing. Let's come up with a solution page of candidates for interview. This is why. And I'll always come up with what I believe is the way forward. And the other thing I've been online since 2001. So in the world of the internet, that's a long time, right? And what I've noticed is that later after people have been that vulnerable on social media. They regret at some point in the future. So what I would like to suggest is don't put yourself vulnerable online, put yourself vulnerable in real life. That's the place to really get that compassion and understanding and so on from somebody. And I think that people are avoiding those real life experiences and not connecting with their tribe Because they felt alienated from the tribe they're in right now, my advice would be go find the right tribe. >> Yeah. >> And be vulnerable in real life rather than online, yeah. >> Yeah, right. And so talking about these different platforms, we did sort of allude briefly to the skin applications and we had, what kind of other online social media platforms are people using for recruitment? >> Well, when I knew this employee who was at McDonald's, they would actually do what they're rostering in Facebook messenger. So don't underestimate the messenger apps. >> Yeah, right. >> So what they actually found with some job applicants is if they emailed them a job offer, nobody responded because nobody was checking their emails. So they actually had to use Messenger to get messages through. If you're dealing with China, then everything is done on WeChat. So yeah, LinkedIn, they went to china but then they found that the government was regulating so many things, that now all you can do in China on LinkedIn is look for jobs. You can't actually do all the other bells and whistles that LinkedIn offers. So Messenger is becoming really valuable. Obviously I like to see things sent in writing. So I would encourage every candidate before they accept a job, say that sounds terrific, please just send me the details in writing. It doesn't have to be a letter in the post, but you can email with starting on this day, salary this much, terms and conditions, I do like to still see those things in writing. I know that Facebook groups can be very good at sourcing people. So for instance, if you were trying to approach a local mum to work at a local school and as a local mothers group then maybe someone from the school would say would you be happy to put this vacancy in the Facebook group? So there's places like that that people go. >> I was just thinking again a little bit more about LinkedIn and you were kind of referencing some people who had great profiles or, some people who had relatively blank profiles and how that can kind of limit the scope of their search ability. Is it rocket science? What kind of things do you need for a good profile? Can you talk a little bit about? >> Yeah Jane, you've asked probably the most valuable question out of this whole podcast. >> [LAUGH] >> [LAUGH] Like everybody assumes because it's social media, they can fill it out themselves and so wrong, it's so wrong. The number one spot for your keywords if you want to be found in your headline, so if you don't highlight all the skills that you want to be found for directly underneath your name, you're screwed. >> Those are keywords because they are the searchable words when someone is Googling hairdresser, whichever else. So that needs to go directly under your headline, yeah. >> Yeah, that's right. >> And that's to do with the algorithm for searching. Interesting. >> So that's the number one spot. Now, I have a headline formula which starts off with a label and I know you should label jars, not people. >> [LAUGH] >> But the networking event and I tell you all the amazing things I do, you're going to forget, right? So my label is independent LinkedIn specialist, that's my sort of line in the sand. So people every time they see me in the news feed, that's what they see. Then after that I put all the other key words I want to be found for in the priority order. And then at the end of it, I put something about me personally. So I'm a woman of a certain age and of course, once you get to a certain age, people think you're ready for retirement, I sure as hell ain't. So I've put on dancer, I don't dance that often and but I've actually been found for dancing jobs, of course, nobody ever messages me about it. >> Yeah, right. >> But it gives people a bit of a smile, but it makes people realize that I'm active and I put a little emoji in there as well. So that's number one- >> Just to keep cool with the kids. >> Yeah, but not too cool, like over the margin, [LAUGH]. >> Yeah, yeah. So is there a hot tip on how many keywords you should be putting in there? You don't want people to put 150 characters or whatever it is, they don't want a full blood. >> No, as many as you can squeeze in. >> Okay. >> Absolutely, if you take out commas and that gives you more words, put it in. Because you've got to be found. If it's not in that first headline, you just won't be found in searches. So next number one spot is in your headline of the current job you are in. And I know there'll be something on this podcast and say, well I'm still studying, I'm not working at the moment. So what you do then is you say career research and then you type in the types of jobs you'd like to be found for. So if you're studying, let's say accounting, right, or HR, you say aspiring HR manager. And technically speaking the stupid computer will think, you're an HR manager, it didn't see the word aspiring or future or upcoming, it just saw the word HR manager and we'll get you in those search results. So whilst the computers are still a little bit stupid and they don't understand the meaning of every single word, we can get around it by doing these things. But the algorithm favors somebody who is currently working. So that's why you need to put in that you're doing career research, so that when a human looks at it, they know you're not got a job but you are moving towards that job. But the algorithm identifies you as currently working. And so then you can tell the story in the description. So then you need to have at least two jobs. So you can have your career research and then maybe you've got your job in a pizza shop. And you might say that the job in a pizza shop has got nothing to do with HR, but what it means is you're working and people like to know that you've got work experience. So put the job in the pizza shop down and you could say you're doing stuff rosters, you're anything to do with HR. You could mention that you're taking care of customer service, inducting new employees, they're all HR skills. So you can mention all those as well as cook pizzas, deliver pizzas, order ingredients whatever and so you need to do that. You need to include your education, because we've all had some form of education and you might say but I dropped out of my course. Well I know someone who did that, they did three subjects at one university and hated it and then went to another university and did their entire degree. And they didn't want to put on that they dropped out of that first university and I said no put it on, just say subjects completed one, two, three. Because then you end up under that alumni of that university and then when you go to the other university you've filled them all in all the subjects you've completed, then you've got your degree. So now this person is part of two alumni groups, so again it's more likely to be found. >> Yeah, great. >> If you want to work for organizations you need to follow them, to check out their careers pages, you need to set up job alerts. There's a whole bunch of things that you can do on your LinkedIn profile if you're looking to attract work and that's why I've written Gigsters. And if anybody wants to download that book, they can go to researchgate.net and they don't even have to create an account. They just look up Sir Wilson and they could download the book and read it for free. So my first four books are all available there any of your listeners are welcome to download. >> And Gigsters specifically looks at how to work for yourself, how to make it work for you kind of. >> Well, it's about how to attract work. >> Yeah, yes. >> So it's a very different experience to get work, as it is to get a job. And the reason I like the idea of getting work is if one of my clients can't afford me anymore, well no problem, I've got other clients. But if I lost a job my whole life is like, hey, how do I make ends meet tomorrow if I lose my job today. And I've been through that, losing a job, losing a contract, things ending early, I've been through that so many times, [LAUGH], well who cares? That's the point you get to, but the first time it happens like it was six and a half years, it took me to stop being angry about being sacked, because I just always worked really, really hard and couldn't believe it. So when you are not attached to the job, then you can attract work And quite often, you can attract shorter gigs that pay more rather than just loads of hours doing one thing, but it's not for everybody, some like the routine, some people like, we still need people in jobs. I'm not saying we're going to lose jobs altogether, but with tech changing so many things, I think we'll end up with a lot more people in work rather than totally. >> And I think it's also providing the skills to navigate an environment of looking for work as opposed to, because it's a scary world that juggle and as you were saying, it's not necessarily for everyone because there is that juggle involved in that being on top of everything is sort of a prerequisite. >> Yeah, the education system teaches us how to do the work, but it doesn't teach us how to find a job. >> Of course, yeah. >> There are two very different skill sets. So once you've learned the skills to find a job, you can just rinse and repeat. The same as study, what do you do? You read content, you absorb it, you reproduce it, you get tested on it. It's the same process no matter what the subject matter is. so the same thing applies, once you've learned those skills to get work, you can keep reusing them. >> Right, so we've talked a little bit about the candidates, the job seekers on LinkedIn. Is there anything specific that employers need to be looking out for when they're using LinkedIn? >> Yeah, so the recruiters all have to pay for something called LinkedIn Recruiter, which is thousands and thousands of dollars a year. So they're looking for a lot of candidates that way. So the average small business, there's no way they could afford LinkedIn Recruiter. I mean that's beyond their budget. So that's why they sometimes use a recruiter because then the recruiter can do those deeper searches. But in terms of what else the employers can do, a lot of people forget to ask people to follow their company on social media. Like back in the day when Facebook first came out, every television commercial said, like our Facebook page, whereas when you post on the Facebook page, everybody was notified. So it was really good for a business to do that. A lot of people have forgotten to do that. But if you think about it, the best gene pool to get people from, the people who are already following the company. So you want to encourage people to follow the company and you also want to be really nice to people who left the company because they might refer people back into the company. A lot of the big consulting firms that actually have alumni groups because they have a relationship with somebody who's worked in a consulting firm but still refers people in after the fact. So, yeah, I think a business also needs to be aware of a lot of good quality candidates will check them out on social media. So if they had a crappy social media presence, people say, no, thanks. And so there's a lot of middle tweaks that I think, it's all those 1%, if you do a little bit of this, a little bit of that, it just gives the whole enterprise a much better impression. And a very large company has contacted me because they've realized the power it's called employee advocacy of getting the employees to support the business brand online. I'm going to be teaching them how to do that because they're actually purchased an app which will send employees the latest best posts and then the employees can interact but how do the employees interact and I've gotta teach them that. So there's a lot of companies who are really looking at the top end of the scale to how they can differentiate their businesses. And I think you've just gotta have that open mind and always be willing to update and improve and be observant. >> Of course, want to come back to talking about diversity and these platforms and how we can use them to seek out employees who are from a broader pool. These employers still going to be looking for people who sort of look and sound like them. Is that something that the company itself needs to be taking onboard? >> Definitely is. Now I was at a Careers Expo and somebody who had a medical issue came up to me and said, should they put it on their resume? And I said, does it affect your ability to do the job you're applying for? And they said, no. And I said, well, there's no need to put it on. I mean you're welcome to disclose it if you wish, but if it doesn't affect your ability to do the job, I'd say go for it. Another person came to me because they had a bionic ear and and they had labeled this all over their LinkedIn profile, I have a bionic ear, blah, blah, blah. And I thought, look, if I'm an average Joe and I don't understand how bionic ear works, I just say no. Too complicated, right? So what I got this woman to do is say, all right, is there anything with a bionic ear and the way you do things that's different to the way somebody who doesn't have a bionic ear does? So she said she can't pick up a telephone because the electronic signal interferes with her bionic ear. So it has to be hands free. So that's one thing. And I said, okay, and what special skills do you have because you're hearing is different? She says, I can look at someone's face and tell you whether they're telling the truth or not. Like she has the ability to interpret facial movements way better than you are because we're using our auditory capacity as well as our visual capacity, but she uses her visual capacity to maximum impact. So instead of going on banging on about the bionic ear and she's hearing impaired, because me, as an employer, I don't know what that means, right? If she describes it as, I have a bionic ear, this, this and this, and that's it, I'm thinking, wow, I love to have her working for me because she sounds fantastic. Now the third person was really interesting. She came to an as part of a professional association and I didn't know this, but she was autistic and I put out a post and I was written something and she responded. So she's actually got a job in a council and she is autistic. Of course, I didn't know that. She wrote to me and she said, I got a lot out of your presentation, so I was super excited that somebody who is autistic understood what I was saying. So that was the first thing. But this article was about not being paid for doing work. And so she turned around and said, but I thought it was only people with disabilities who weren't paid for doing work. Now, I never knew that. Like she's thinking she can't get paid because of her disability and I'm thinking I can't get paid, I don't know because I'm a woman or because they value me or I don't know, whatever reason. So we all have these misapprehensions. So I guess the point is if you're the candidate, you have to describe your value, whatever that is. Now, if somebody had to sit there and work all day with numbers, I'd be quite happy if they were autistic rather than a raving extrovert. To me, that would be good for them and good for me, right? If I've got a surgeon who has to be completely anal and precise because they're going to cut my heart open, I'm comfortable with that. I don't want the person who's the life of the party and a rock and roll star with a knife on my heart. No, thanks. So I think we need to encourage people of diverse backgrounds to tell their stories in a way that people, who have abilities, understand and can see their value and can say, that value would be fabulous for me or that value is not quite aligned. So it's not got anything to do with a disability. It's more to do with this task requires you to drive a forklift. You need to be able to see for instance, like that's a requirement of the task. But somebody else who has assisted technology that can still do a task terrific. Like they could be in a call center. No problem at all. They possibly be able to remember all the procedures and another person who I got to do some work for me, Only has 5% vision. And I listened to a podcast he was on and he says his classified is legally blind. He doesn't know whether it's illegal to be not blind which I thought was funny. Anyway, he said that his 5% vision is fabulous. So he can still see in that little window everything perfectly clear. But if you stick him out in an outdoor space with lots of distractions, he's not confident in that environment. So he is a radio producer and really good at it because he's 5% vision can see all the knobs and he can still do that. So let's start helping people tell their stories, that would be my advice. Both the employer telling their stories saying we do have an accessible workplace. We've got work ramps, we've got toilets for people of all abilities. We've got this, we've got that. We've got these types of leave, we have flexible work practices, we have hybrid work practices, impact on linkedin. Now your company can mention whether you offer remote or hybrid or whatever. And yeah, once we get those stories coming out, then I think we'll see a lot better quality diversity and inclusion on both sides. >> Awesome. Well, I was just thinking, is there any final thoughts before we clock off today? >> Yeah. Look, if you're a student and you're thinking about your future, I really want you to think about your achievements because it's so easy to forget what you've achieved. And I use an expression if you don't tell, you can't sell because in the old days of selling everybody kept their cards really close to their chest and they wouldn't tell anybody information because somebody might steal it and use it for another. Whereas in the digital world you have to put yourself out there and tell the story because you want to be found. So you're not found, then you don't get those opportunities. So if you were hired to cook pizzas, but you're actually a mechanical engineer and you fixed up the machine and change it to a just in time manufacturing process and reduce the wastage and blah blah, that's an achievement. Like you said, but I'm only working. But what did you do? You improved it. When you were stacking shelves at a supermarket, did you learn occupational health and safety? Did you train others? Did you recruit three friends? What did you do? They're all achievements. Anything over and above what you did or you were hired for is an achievement plus anything you did particularly well. So my advice to everybody is you're not bragging if you're sharing your achievements, if you just say I did this I did that, that is not bragging. And that story needs to be told because a good recruiter will say past behavior is a predictor of future performance and it's not a guarantee. But if you improve that manufacturing process at the pizza shop, there's a pretty good chance that you'll improve something in the next organization you're a part of. So please share your stories, drunken parties is not one of those stories. >> Choose what short stories you're going to be sharing on social media. >> But get your story out there and do more stuff in real life because I mean I'm on tech, I've been on teck for a very long time, but nothing beats the human connection and human experience. Why do you think we love cafes so much? It's because we get a human experience and I think that at all times in every type of thing that we do, we need to remember we are humans, we need to be understanding of one another and just a little bit more compassionate and understanding and be willing to ask questions rather than make assumptions. >> Yeah great. And I guess that all comes back to what we were talking about today about the candidate experience, which is that it's about people interacting and that on both sides people are trying to seek the best result and they're trying to figure out the best way of doing that to get the best results. And that they are real people and that you are applying for the job or a real person and that once we can kind of remind ourselves a little bit of that. We're all just trying to seek the same thing. >> Yeah, why not throw in donuts or chocolate as well. >> Sue, thank you so much for today. It's been an absolute delight. Best of luck with your upcoming books and things and your many not jobs work, but you've got in the pipeline and I'm sure so many students are going to be thrilled to hear about everything you've had to say today. >> That brings us to the end of our two part series, chatting to Dr Sue Elson on the candidate experience as well as recruitment and social media. Thank you so so much again Sue for your time and for chatting to us today. Thank you all for listening and we hope you join us again soon for another UWA podcast. See you then. [MUSIC]
