[CROSSTALK] >> The first piece that we read in the class, do you all remember? >> Young Goodman Brown. >> Young Goodman Brown. Exactly. >> Oh, really? Oh fabulous. >> [CROSSTALK] Has that kind of, he's almost self-conscious about it in the, in the same ways, and it's, it's, it's about a haunting but it's before. >> Yeah. >> You know, it seems like it's on the dawn of things, >> Very much so. >> When things go south. >> Very much so. And so for, for Connie, too, I wanted to think about, Sophia's death is definitely a catalyst for her movement in space, but it's also, underscores to us the fact that Grace, to some degree, has defined herself in opposition to Sophia. That Grace is kind of a rebel. And Connie paradoxically has rebelled against the rebellion. Connie's in many respect, she's kind of a messy dresser, but she's also pretty tight laced. She's pretty serious about her work, and she's very focused. She's kind of a hard-nosed realist at the beginning of the story, and has no patience for Grace's Grace's mode of living or way of looking at the world. And so, part of what I was trying to do was to interrogate the way that these legacies. I mean, to some degree we're conscious of the legacy that we're handed. But to another degree, we're not as conscious of the legacy that we're handed. And that approaching history is one way to start getting at a better understanding of the way that those things can intersect. >> I have a question about, the relationship between the Deliverance and Mercy is interesting [INAUDIBLE]. >> Hm. >> Happens, like specifically, schooling. Like this is another daughter pass out. >> Yeah. >> But then you have this tension that you talk about between Connie and Grace. >> Uh-huh. >> Even though the same trait is connecting them. >> Okay. >> so what was your decision, or what was your decision-making behind how you defined those relationships? >> as to why I would have Deliverance and Mercy have a close relationship, and Connie and Grace have a somewhat alienated relationship, that what you said? >> Yeah. Specifically, like how the ma, like the magical like, ability is passed down. >> [LAUGH] >> Yeah. >> well I think, in my imagination of it, at least for the, the more fantastical part of the story, I imagined that, in, in my imaginary world, there was a slight genetic aspect to it, but that also required some training. So like, it's possible to get a knack for music from someone in your family, I think, maybe. But, it won't do you any good if you don't practice. [LAUGH] Or if you never pick up an instrument, it won't make any difference. And so I was conceiving of magic as maybe a knack for lack of a better word. And so, I thought that mercy, given what we know about this, this kind of stereotype, isn't the right word, but this historical imaginary, that was popular or, or that was widespread in 17th Century, that folk magic practice was something that could be conveyed. so, I, it seemed reasonable to me that Mercy would have studied it as a trade, in effect. If Deliverance was a cunning person for her village. In effect, that's how I represent her. That Mercy would have been trained in the same way that she would have been trained in, in any other respect. and, with Connie and Grace, I see it more as a case of just to get back at what we were talking about before. Connie is in rebellion. [LAUGH] Connie is rejecting what her mother stands for and so Connie might have a knack, but she is not picking up the instrument. She wants no part of it. until the story of course changes and forces her to kind of grapple with herself on a few more levels, to kind of come into a better knowledge of herself. But that was what informed my thinking. >> That, that question of a knack. >> [LAUGH] >> And a, like a talent. There, there was one passage on, on page 21 where, this is fairly early on. It's in Chapter, towards the end of Chapter One. and it's when Chilton is talking to her about, talking to Connie about her dis, a possible dissertation. >> Mm-hm. >> Topic. and he says, only I urge you to look vigorously for new source bases. We need to think strategically about your career, my girl and we can't do that if you're just revisiting the same old archives. [LAUGH] A really marvellous newly uncovered primary source can make you in this field. New, new shall be your watch word. So there's a, I, I, I, the, the first time I read this, that really struck me because I felt like you well, what you're talking about is of course the title of your book. >> Sure. >> The delivering stain which is the foreshadowing. >> Foreshadowing. >> [CROSSTALK] [LAUGH] >> But it's, but it's also a moment of self-consciousness, where her craft, there, your character's craft as a historian and your craft as a writer are kind of coming together, because you're inventing this book. >> I am. >> And so I wonder if you could talk a little bit about that, of your own process of invention as a writer, and what how it maybe relates to your own process as a researcher, but also, you know, it's kind of a, is there a nitty-gritty sense of your own craft that you want to share, like you have secrets. >> [LAUGH] Well, it's, what's funny is I still haven't really wrapped my head around the fact that I have produced a primary source. I mean, that is, that is [CROSSTALK] >> And here we are studying it. >> That is what a novel is, in effect, because I think that I approached it. My imaginary universe for this book was very much kind of a, an artefact of, let me, let me think how to phrase it. It felt like a secondary source while I was writing it, if that makes any sense. If that makes any sense. Maybe it doesn't. So in answer to your question, I think part of it was. The role of the physic book it, itself. I mean, it, it is, of course, a MacGuffin. I mean, from a, a, from a plot standpoint, it is the most MacGuffiny of MacGuffins. which is, you know? >> Explain MacGuffin. >> [LAUGH]. >> Do you guys know what a MacGuffin is? A MacGuffin, a MacGuffin is, is the object that you're after, that, this, the quest for it motivates the story. So, the quest structure is one of the most basic structures of fiction. So, like, one of the classic MacGuffins is, I think, the Maltese Falcon is a classic MacGuffin. Another one is in Pulp Fiction, this suitcase that the two gangsters are after to retrieve for their boss. At one point, we even see them look inside. And we never learn what's inside the suitcase. And that's because what's inside the suitcase doesn't matter. what matters is the pursuit of the suitcase. So, on the one hand, the physic book itself is very classically a MacGuffin. but on the other hand I think, it, it definitely came into being as part of the, you know, the great researcher's fantasy. I mean, in this scene with Chilton at the beginning, we learn later that he has an ulterior motive for wanting Connie to do the kind of work that she ends up doing. That it is a selfish motive. But at the same time it is a motive that we all, it's a motive that motivates all us to uncover some kind of new detail that changes the way we might interpret the past or the way we might understand the past. And so I didn't want to have a, an, an empty MacGuffin. I didn't want to have a signifier-less concept. And that's why we do learn to some degree, what's inside the physic book. And everything instantly that is in the physic book derives from sources, that I read. They can be sourced to different kind of folk magical practices and things like that. but I think that the, the relationship between intellectual pursuit and the pursuit of self knowledge. I mean, I think that that's a fairly old idea, isn't it? The idea that there can be a, a moral worth to intellectual pursuit. Maybe I'm naive for still subscribing to that belief. Maybe I'm, I'm dating myself. >> And there can be moral worth, and there can also be danger, right? >> Sure. Of course, yeah. >> [CROSSTALK] Seeking knowledge where you shouldn't. >> Exactly. Exactly. >> There also seems to be this really stark anxiety of, I guess, sort of safeguarding that, that deep knowledge, where someone of sort of a reprehensible, immoral character like Chilton isn't worthy to have possession. >> Mm-hm. >> Of something like the Physic Book of Deliverance. >> Mm-hm. >> And there seems to be this real, obviously, definitely a real distrust between Connie and between Chilton, where she know this. >> Mm-hm. >> Whether it's, she's conscious of that fear, but there seems to be this constant anxiety, >> Mm-hm. >> That he's going to steal my research. >> Yeah. >> And, I find that fascinating in the context of a world where magic and charms and spells and the ability to tap into that energy source if you will, that's presented in the novel, is something that is passed down, and yet is sort of hidden from certain characters who don't sort of meet the standard of being able to wield that kind of power. >> I'm interested in your characterization of Chilton as, as sort of unworthy. I mean I think the thing about Chilton is that I've never been, he's, he is very transparently villainy, and I definitely, you know, I definitely spare no expense in making Chilton as villainy as, as I want him to be. I stopped short of giving him a twirling moustache, but I mean, you know, it's beginner's novelist prerogative to make a villainy villain. But I was, I've never been particularly motivated by evil for its own sake. You know, I think that in Sci-Fi films and things like that, you see the sense of you know, the evil exists and it's going to destroy us all, for no reason! Just because it's evil. I mean that's such a, it's such a technological kind of false conception and I think that, I think that evil and villainy is better understood or better explored as as a human failing, or as inevitable human weakness. And so I wanted to think about Chilton as not a bad person, but a flawed person. And because we are all flawed people. Connie is certainly very flawed, everyone else that she encounters is very flawed. And I know all of my historical people, Deliverance isn't all that nice. and so it, I feel like it creates more, it's a more interesting question to ask if whether you are evil or not is a matter of point of view, or is a matter of, you know, weakness or strength. And, so it's not that Chilton is a bad person, or evil for its own sake. Chilton is afraid and he is, he is anxious and he has reached the end of his own kind of intellectual journey. He doesn't know what questions to ask himself any more and that is the risk that he poses to, to Connie. And and I feel like it's a risk could Connie could easily pose to someone else. I mean, one thing that readers sometimes ask me if I'm going to do a sequel to Physic book and the interesting thing is I do have a genealogy of all the women in the family that come between the three women living in the past and the three women living in 1991. I know who all the 18th Century Dane women are and the 19th Century Dane women and I have a sense of who they are and what they'd be like. And I had a sense of what might happen to Connie in the future. And if I ever tell that story, it will be interesting to me to grapple with Connie, for instance, once she has become established. You know? Connie's in her 20's in 1990. That means that by, by now, if we write a present-day story, she is, she's probably got tenure somewhere. She is a. >> Ancient. >> Yeah. >> [LAUGH]. >> She's really very old. >> [LAUGH]. >> But it would, it would be an interesting set of questions to see, to see what kind of person, what kind of intellectual, what kind of woman Connie has become? >> I think you get a really clear sense of that when I guess it's Deliverance, and she says give me the light not or, give me the candle, I'll find the witch's teat, in a lot of you and. >> Mm-hm. It's kind of the sense that you can find evil in everybody if you, if you're looking hard enough. >> Mm-hm. >> So, I think he made that really clear [CROSSTALK]. >> [LAUGH] Thanks. Or at least that or at least that, that, you know, moral rectitude is, is a matter often of context. >> Right. >> And a matter of point of view. in fact, the, the see, the scene where women are searching Deliverance's body, for the, the witch's teat, that is also historically derived, as you've probably gathered. And, [CROSSTALK] >> Excuse me, let me interrupt you. This is the interlude, starting on page 294 of the paperback. >> Wow, okay. 294. the witch's teat was one of, was actually the only piece of physical evidence that was entered at witch trials in the early modern period. there were three kinds of evidence that would count against you if you were a witch, or if you were being tried as a witch. one was spectral evidence which was, which was subject to a lot of theological debate. it was actually a big theological debate during Salem. It was a theological debate leading up to Salem. Spectral evidence is where I say, I saw the shape of Goody Smith come in at the window last night and she sat on my chest and she told me that she killed Goody Jones's baby. That would be me giving a deposition about what Goody Smith had sent her spirit out to do. this was something that you see very commonly in witch trial transcripts from this time period. And, one of the theological debates at the time was whether or not it was possible for the devil to assume the shape of an innocent person. So if I saw, assuming, I think, that I saw the shape of Goody Smith come in at the window and sit on my chest and tell me these things, was it really Goody Smith sending her spirit out, or is it the devil trying to trick me? Can the devil assume the shape of Goody Smith if Goody Smith is, isn't a moral person? And this was something that theologians of the time debated hotly left right and center. So that was one kind of evidence. Another kind of evidence was, sort of anecdotal evidence of maleficium, which is what I talked about before. I was at home, cooking, and Goody Smith came to my door, and she rapped on my door, and she asked me if I had any extra food. And I didn't, and so I sent her away, and then 15 minutes later my baby tipped the pot over and scalded her hands and then she died, you know. There was, this was a time when correlation and causation were closely connected or at least they hadn't been, they hadn't been unbraided, at that time. And so that would have been kind of very persuasive evidence at that time, especially if Goody Smith had a bad reputation. But the witch's teat was the only physical kind of evidence. And that was the spot on your body where it was it, where it was thought that you suckled your devilish familiar. This is where you get your yellow birds, your black cats, your red rats. Things like that. Although, interestingly in the early modern handwriting, the R and the C is very hard to distinguish. So whether it's a cat or a rat is sometimes difficult to decide. and so and so, of course, the spot on your body could be anything, really. And in some of the testimony from this time period, it's pretty clear that what they're talking about is the clitoris, which is what is strongly implied in this scene. And that, you know, for a, a gendered crime, as witchcraft clearly was, having a, a gendered piece of physical evidence was, is, is pretty compelling to consider. And so, that is the origin for this for this scene. but at the same time, you're quite right. I mean, what she's saying is both literally true, I could find it on all of you. But it is also, you know, kind of spiritually true or morally true. You know, that anyone if she were in, in such a situation could be found guilty in the same way. But I was also struck by the fact that in thinking about witchcraft as a gendered crime, there is a tendency to look at the witches who were predominantly women, the judges and theologians who were predominantly men. And we forget that there are these intervening roles which are not as clearly defined, such as the afflicted little girls who are doing the accusing, and the women would search a woman's body trying to find evidence of her wrongdoing, which is a good way of putting suspicion away from yourself. So it's not as clear-cut as it might at first appear.
