Started. >> Yeah, I read, I spent a lot of time reading the poem over the last couple days. And I watched your guys' take on it, the video take on it. >> Yeah. >> And I loved the poem, I think it's really, it's covers so much, kind fo, emotional ground for me. But I was wondering, in a larger sense that this poem kind of brought up, and I think probably more poems coming up will bring up. And I hope this isn't too dumb of a question, but is there a way of defining something that's a prose poem, that, is there a point or a way where it just becomes prose, where you don't feel like you're still in sort of a poetic space, where you. Do you understand that? >> Yeah, I think I do. Would you let me rephrase your question and if I'm creating a synonymous way of asking that would be good but if I'm changing your question you can either allow my change or correct me. Can I try this? >> Sure, yeah. >> Okay, so I think in part, and Lee you have the portable mics. We're going to go to Lee and then maybe Katie on this, all right? So I think you're saying what constitutes a poem as a poem, that distinguishes it from prose and one of the things that does, Is the way a line is written, the lyricism of a single line. Another way is, of course, lineating, and not making it prose. But does this poem, which seems to use prose like arbitrary lineation, and doesn't have necessarily poetic language, but in this case, the language of an instruction manual combined with the language of a tour guide, travel writing. Are we at sea here in know what the poetic elements are? >> Yeah, that's basically the question but also going further are there points or is there poetry that you've read maybe from more contemporary authors and things like that that you will actually look at it and say this is on the border, I don't know if this is a poem, is this really prose? >> Sure, and all the poetry that I like is on the border. All the poetry that I like is saying to me hey Al, do you think this is a poem? I don't think this is a poem the way you think this is a poem. I think I want to try to chart new ground. And I think one of the reasons why everybody laughed and applauded when Ashbery in the 50s was reading this poem around an event, was that they realized that this guy actually made this thing, this non-poetic thing into a poem. So I'm going to turn to Lee and ask her to add anything she likes to this discussion, and then to Katie. Lee, put the mic right up to you. >> I think you have to come back to me, I have to think about it. >> Okay, Katie, what do you think? >> I'd say a couple things. I think particularly in the 20th century lots of poets sort of lose interest in this question. And that is what makes the poetry interesting is that they're interested in different types of questions, then how can this be poetic in the sense that it's a standard meter? It's more about content or using any type of language as poetry. So it's more about how the language is used. >> Mm-hm. >> Than actually about quote, unquote poetic notions of language. >> That's good, that makes me think also that there are other categories of what makes a poem a poem. And in this case, the conceptualism of the thing, the whole idea. Yes, it is a poem in that it's lineated and it actually uses traditional poetic language, lyrical descriptions of colorful scenes in a place, that kind of crap. But it also at the level of the poem as a concept. I'm going to write a poem, which represents the thing I was not suppose to be writing, but I wrote this instead. So, I guess I want to turn to maybe Anna or Kristen, or both and ask them to speak about life, about the poets life. What is Ashbery saying about the kind of life that he wants to lead as a poet? Through this experiment in what a poem is and what he's allowed to write and what he's not allowed to write. And it looks like Kristen is ready. She's smiling because there's no classes today. >> Well. >> Would you start? >> I mean I think that what Ashbery was saying is that he doesn't want to leave that white knuckled life. And he wants the freedom of being able to explore in his mind what is not in the instruction manual. >> Right, well said. And what about you personally? Is that, you're a writer. >> Yeah, [INAUDIBLE] >> You're in training out to lead a writer's life. >> Yeah. >> What do you think? >> Well, I don't think I can use that in real life. [LAUGH] So I think I'm also in the anti instructional manual training right now. >> Yeah, but you use the word training. >> Well, because I'm in school, right now. [CROSSTALK] >> You have a Columbian University instruction manual in anti-instruction manual-ism. >> Yes, exactly. >> You're in talks and you're actually. >> I put my MSA-ism. All right, on the other hand, Allie Castelman, who just came back from a fabulous experience at McSweeney's and is, I guess, kind of on furlough, figuring out what to do next. She's free. Anna, talk to Allie about the life of the writer. >> Go Allie. I guess the reason why this poem is so much fun to read and why I just like really enjoy it so much is that, what he's playing with is finding the poetic language in the instruction manual. And making us think about the instruction manualist that we read, and that, even that language, even that language with its most prose, it can in fact be poetry when you approach it as a poem. So, maybe we should throw it to Emily. Emily, you said this in one of the discussion. Do you remember those posts that you wrote? >> Oh-oh, you can remind me if you'd like. >> Yeah, you wrote this really, really awesome post. >> [LAUGH] >> No, Emily wrote this really amazing post about how you approach the language that we find in a regular instruction manual that you see. I think you used an air conditioner as your example. >> I do remember that. >> You remember this now? Okay, Emily, go. >> [LAUGH] >> Well, this is great. Al doesn't have a purpose anymore, let's just go around. >> [LAUGH] No, I'm telling you, Shirley, you were doing it for me. >> Emily. >> Yeah, I talked about how you, context matters a lot in determining what a poem is, and if you found this instruction manual in a box with an air conditioner. You'd have some license to think of it just as a instruction manual. It doesn't signal itself as something you should consider poetically. But when a poet is writing an instruction manual, you can begin to infer with a bit of confidence that you're dealing with something that's poetocally intentive, which is commenting on itself as language and commenting on an instruction manual as such. >> Nice, this is a cousin of du chon. It's a cousin Williams and the refrigerator note. So if you in fact, when we get to chapter 9.3, which is our conceptualism chapter, it's a section of chapter nine, the last week of the course. There are going to be poets there who would take that air conditioning manual and retype it. And say this is a poem, which is not so tangled because it's actually what Dushawn did all those years before. And, it's in a way what Williams did. And so the question is, Craig and everybody else, and Kristen in her anti-instruction manual situation is if we read the telephone book and say it's a poem, can we start to hear the beauty of the sounds of the names of people? And the answer is yes. I want to go to Lee and then back to Micheal and then were going to, Craig are you still on the line? >> Yeah, I am here. >> So I want to go to Lee, and then Michael, and then I am going to give you a chance to say a final word on this before you hang up, is that okay? >> Sure. >> Great, Lee. >> I kind of want to build on what Kristen said about that anti-instruction manual writing. Because see with my life, I'm a writer I write poetry I write novels. But then I have a job where I'm writing the mundane. >> You're actually living the Ashbury situation. >> I'm living the Ashbury situation. [LAUGH] >> And Kristen is not at the moment. because Kristen's totally in the I am a writer mode. >> Well, I do both. I have to switch in and out of them. But what I started to notice is I think after I read this poem last year in is that it gave me that kind of spark to be like, okay, I can live the instruction manual life and use it to create beautiful things. And I think that was the turning point for me, was this poem was, you can take things that are mundane, you can take thing that are tedious. Writing an instruction manual is boring, but then you take it out of context and you make it something new, and it becomes that much more enjoyable. >> Yes, good. Well the mic is passing its way back to Michael and Dan. I'll just note that I think Ashbery, one of the reasons we attend attach ourselves to the young Ashbery because most of us feel like we're in a similar situation. Where the thing we really want to write is the thing we're not currently not supposed to write. It is such a human condition of modern human condition. It’s amazing it took that long in the age of for someone to come up for that idea. Michael, Hi. >> Daniel says that for him it's the love of language or at least the awareness of language predominates then for him the writing becomes poetic. >> Predominates over information, sorry. >> Dan's not going to like this, but I'm going to ask you to repeat that. >> Okay, let me read it on [INAUDIBLE]. >> Yeah, Dan typed it on the iPad. >> I feel that if the love for awareness of language predominates over information it's poetic. >> Wow, I don't know who is going to, I'll put Craig on the spot. Craig did you hear what Dan said? Yeah, I heard that. >> Do you want to try to respond to that? >> I tend to agree with it, and I didn't want to sound like I was sort of retro in that I needed to hear. >> You didn't sound that way. >> Okay, there's also a question maybe of that I do butt up against a little bit is having to rely on knowing an artists intention. I sort of sometimes butt up against that even in the visual arts. Do you need to, does the artist's intention, the authorship of that, really should that be that important? >> Ally, can I ask you a question? >> Craig, thank you for the comment and the question. And would you hang up and listen to the answer through the video stream so we can get another call? >> Yeah, absolutely. >> Thank you so much for calling. >> Okay. >> 215-573-9752. Ally, do you know what the intention of the instruction manual is from reading it or do you have to learn other stuff about Ashbery's life, talk close to the mic. >> I don't really think I mean, I guess it's helpful to know that he was doing this type of writing. But it doesn't really matter what John Ashbery was doing. It matters what the speaker of the poem was doing. >> And he inscribes it into the poem, the situation. >> Exactly, yeah. >> Yeah, so I think Craig is right to worry about intention in other poems where this happens, but in this poem it's so programmatic. He makes it really clear.
