[MUSIC] I'm here today with Tony Richards, who is the owner and founder of Hippie Radio, 94.5 FM here in Nashville. I think the fastest growing radio station in this market. Is that right? That sounds good to me. [LAUGH] Thank you for joining me today. We're going to be talking about radio. Can you tell us a little bit just to start off about how you got into radio in the first place? Yes I was 13 years old and a friend of mine and I ran into another kid whose father worked at Magnavox and he had a little radio station. And I was like you have a radio station? What? And I went over to his house and they were broadcasting out of their bedroom. It only got out maybe a mile or so, it probably wasn't really illegal or a pirate station, but we called it that. [LAUGH] But it was about the coolest thing I ever saw. So I'm like, okay, this is for me it was about being on the air and trying to get girls with it. And when you're 13 that's what you do. But it could have gone the other way. We could have been the geeky guys that do the AV equipment in the classroom and I was like, I don't want to be that guy. I just want to be the cool end. [LAUGH] So. So yeah so pretty much ever since then when I was 13 I've been in broadcasting. So, how did it develop from there? Well it was actually there were a bunch of us got together and we pooled our resources we mowed lawns and did everything we could to generate money so that we could buy records and equipment and turntables and build a transmitter and buy a car battery that ran the transmitter. And they were about, I would say, 13 or 14 of us that came out of my basement that are all in broadcasting. Wow. Television, engineers, audio people, sales people, management. All out of our basement. And my father, I think let us do it, because he knew where we were. [LAUGH] And we weren't really getting into trouble. So, yeah, that's what we do. Tell us a little bit about the history of Hippy Radio. Well, Hippy Radio was an idea I came up with back when consolidation of radio stations began. There was apparently some research done by someone who decided that nobody was spending any money on oldie radio stations, advertisers weren't buying it, so they say. And so most of the oldie stations in the United States went off the air. They took them all off, and it was a few companies, CBS in particular who actually had one of the biggest oldies stations in the country WCBS FM in New York actually changed formats. [CROSSTALK] What year was this? I'd want to say this was around early 2000s. Maybe 2005, 2004, somewhere in there. Anyway, so all these oldies stations went off the air and I was just like, what are they doing? That's crazy. There's this whole format that just was missing on radio. And so, a friend of mine was a researcher, and she had done research for PBS television nationally and so on Sunday nights I'm watching these Austin City Limits things and all these cool programs that are on and I'm thinking about baby boomer's and how it's a really fast growing demographic and how there were so many of them and they were getting ready to head into retirement and had so much money. And I was at a broadcasters event where a professor from, I believe it was Penn State or something, came in and she was talking about marketing to baby boomers in this demographic and how there were no oldies stations around the US anymore. And so I called this person I knew about research and I said so is it the music that's the problem, or is it, in my world, it was the name. Because if you were a baby boomer, number one, you were already kind of hip, okay. You weren't your typical older a person. And so when people say hey what's your favorite station, they didn't really want to say, well oldies is my favorite station. So they kind of had this thing about saying it, Baby boomers don't want to be old. No they don't. And they don't, they were using terms like cool, and oldies, and fun, and all these things. And I thought, literally, as this lady is talking, this professor, I'm like, It'd be radio. This is a very specific time period that I think people immediately, it can be cooler than the old list. Yes. And so I actually just thought about it and the person I was sitting next to actually got out of high school, hopped in a van, went all over the country, did the whole hippie thing Went to Woodstock and I'm starting to tell her about this. She goes, my god, I would listen to that all day. So we did some research and found out that 94% of the people and this was national research, would listen to a radio station in hippy, because I was getting a little push back when I was rolling it out and people were saying, that's too liberal for me. We're a pretty conservative town. And I'm like, it's not about that. we're just trying to take the fun part out of that era and put it on the radio again. Right. And make this like the great WLAC was back in the early seventies, when it was a big Top 40 AM station. And WLS in Chicago and all those kind of stations. So I just wanted to bring that back because I felt that that's what people grew up with and I thought it would strike a chord with them and so far so good. [MUSIC] I'm a fan of your station, I listen to it a lot, I notice that your play list is larger than a lot of play lists of terrestrial radio, we'll talk about your streaming thing in a minute. But you also have a bit piece of the charm of your station for me is the local angle. You'll talk about local businesses. You'll talk about people that I know from the community here. And speak with them. I'd like for you to say a bit about that local flavors were being combined with a sort of nostalgic playlist. Yeah, one thing we wanted to do, sort of this live and local thing has really kind of gone away, and I actually ran a group of stations for a long time, we had 17 radio stations, and We sort of always went against this big corporate kind of dictate, where there's no fun promotions anymore. There's no being out in the community, sort of the ground game. And I still feel the business is what has changed, not the people. I'm kind of a big fan of corny works. I used to make fun of people who did lost dog reports on here, but now I love it when I hear that. Yeah. Because that's really what we do. Yeah. A great example, got an email yesterday, somebody got married over the weekend here in Nashville their honey mooning on the beach in Florida Went through our streaming email, media player and emailed us and said hey, I want to surprise her, can you play the Beatles Here Comes the Sun that was our song at our wedding, and here's a guy in Florida. Why would we do one thing for two people that aren't here right now? And play that for them, but that's kind of what you do. Because a thousand people like me would be like, that's so sweet. Exactly, I think if you can touch everybody a little some, it matters. There's sort of two economies here in Nashville. There's the regular economy and then there's this whole music economy. And it's kind of it's own thing. And I ran into a gentleman who created his own show called The Originals, and his name is Even Stevens. And I was introducing him about BMI and they said, I don't know if this guy. His name is Even Stevens. I'm like Eddie Rabbitt, I knew right away. Because when I'm 13 or 14 I'm playing his Eddie Rabbitt songs and I look Underneath the title and I see Even Stevens, that's a cool name. And we kind of got to know each other, and we played his program on Hippy on Sunday nights. And I said look, here's the thing, any musicians that are in our world of music, Hippy's world of music. Let them know they have a friend here, any time they want to come by. These are the people who sort of, in my opinion, made the greatest music in the greatest period of time. So even though I wasn't a hippy, and I'm on the tail end of being a baby boomer, I sort of understood that world. And I said these are people that are artists that have been forgotten, that are ignored, are still writing, and making great music, and nobody ever talks to them. And if these classic rock stations all over the country or the oldies stations all over the country would just pick up the phone, these are wonderful people and they come in all the time. Just grab a guitar, come on in, we'll talk to you. If you're a local business and you have something going on, come on in, we'll make room. It's not a big pervasive thing because we're still music focused. But if it's cool and it's local, we want to do it. >> You mentioned earlier that the live and local angle, and I would love for you to explain to our listeners how commercial radio stations sort of navigate this. Well sometimes the programs are prerecorded and sometimes they're live on the air. And how do you handle that, like what was [CROSSTALK] >> When you put on a radio station, everybody wants to do their own show. [LAUGH] Hey, I do this really cool show, and all we do is instrumental songs. And I do this really cool show and we're focusing on female artists. Or I do this show and we focus on ukuleles, I mean they just kind of come out of the woodwork, and you have to be a little careful. So we want to give the ones that we believe our audience have interest in that time. And for example, Even Stevens show, the originals, he collects original demos of hit songs. So, whether it's Wake Up Little Susie, the husband and wife who wrote that, singing it on the phone, he's got that recording. >> I've heard that show, it's great. >> Or these just really bizarre things, but our audience finds incredibly interesting. Sunday Night Vinyls is another show we created with Hubner, our afternoon jock. We were kind of talking, I was like wouldn't it be great to just play a record. And so the first show we did, we had to first of all, find a turn table, not easy to do. A little easier now, but when we started a couple years ago, we need a USB turn table, we gotta have the good one. >> Right. >> He did the show and he wanted to host it, and we invited our listeners, hey, whoever's got a cool album and you want to play it, so we involved them through social media. Bring it in and you can introduce it. Why did you buy this album? What made you buy it? >> I did one of those actually and I loved it. >> Yeah, because we want to hear those stories. I know what my first album was. You know what your first album was. You know what your first concert was. And so he plays it and he does it, he drops the needle on the turn table, and the song starts playing. I'm like no, no, no. Slow down. I want to hear the needle go on the record. I want to hear, so you'll notice there's a little bit of time so that you can get that feeling for this. But what if the record skips? Good. >> Right. >> It used to skip. [LAUGH] We want it to skip if it skips. Not all the time, but if it's a beat up album, we'll know it. If you took care of your album, we'll know it. If you played it a lot, we'll know it. And that's sort of the charm of that show. So they seem kind of out there but they're really not to someone who appreciates this era of music. >> There seems to be a common thread in a lot of what you're saying. Whether it's the pops and scratches at the beginning of a record, or it's the dedication to one couple in Florida, or it's the I lost my dog and I'm calling in. It's like a very personal touch. Why do you think that resonates so much right now? >> I think it resonates and I think it will always resonate. And that's why we'll get the radio's sort of a dying medium, we're over the top of the bell curve now, and the newspapers are even further along down that bell curve than we are already. The great thing about radio, and this is why we're really evolving into an audio industry. We are distributed on over any way we can get our out there, hippie out there we want to. But I think that the charm of it is this relationship. And my best example is radio was going to die when the reel-to-reel came out, and when the cassette deck came out, and when the 8-track came out, and when the MP3 player came out, and the iPods, and the iPads, and on your mobile device. And we're still here. And the reason we are, and I believe the reason Hippy is creating this connection with people that's different than most stations because most stations aren't as passionate about it like they used to be. >> Mm-hm. >> Is because of that human connectedness. And my example is let's say you even have 2,500 tunes on your iPod, your MP3 player, or whatever, somewhere on your mobile device, wherever you have these songs. Over time, you know what they are. You can put them on shuffle, you can whatever. It's just like they always come back. And why do they come back? And I believe the reason that people come back to the radio is you don't always want to pick your own songs. >> Right. >> In this world where we can pick and choose whatever we want, wherever we want, I want somebody else to pick them. And I'll sit through a bad song that I may not really love to get to a good one. Or to play a game, a contest that I didn't really expect. Or to hear something I wasn't ready for. And it's because of the human element. I still believe there's a connection with radio on America's front porch, and I say that a lot. And those days where they just sit on the front porch on a really cool Nashville evening and listen to the radio. >> Yeah. >> So while it's great to program your own stuff, whether it's Pandora, or any other streaming service, there's still a charm about having another human being on the other end, a real human being. >> Well, and in this case, you are the real human being, right? You're the person who makes a lot of the programming choices. Or the only guy who makes the- >> Well, yeah, for now. I handed it off a few times, and they've messed it up a little- >> [LAUGH] >> So I take it back, so I have what I call an intervention. That's cool but no, we're not doing that. [LAUGH] >> Right, so how do you choose the songs that are going to be on your playlist? >> Well, it's not rocket science. And I'll be happy to give away my secret because most researchers in parameter, they're like what are you doing? I get a lot of my data from how records did. Let's say a song like Convoy, which was a novelty record that CW McCall did whenever year it was, or any other novelty record. Aspry Stevens' Down the Street to the greatest rock and roll songs ever done like Dream On or Sweet Emotion or Can't Get No Satisfaction. A lot of times we're all on the charts at the same time, whether it was this goofy what they would say bubble gum 1910 fruit gum company or Tony Orlando and Dawn. Hey, you know what? Deep Purple was on the charts at the same time, and so were these songs. And these so called industry experts would come along and say you can't do that stuff, it doesn't make sense, and that's exactly why we're doing it. Those sold millions and millions and millions and millions of copies. >> Right. >> Just because they're goofy songs doesn't mean nobody ever wants to ever hear them ever again. So what typically happens is, researchers come in, they research and say hey, I'll give you a great example, there was a format out called jamming. It was in the 80s, early 90s. Some research company said hey, you know what? Nobody ever plays Brick House any more by the Commodores. And they don't play Al Green and these great, soulful tunes. So they find out that these test really, really well. Well the reason they test well is because people can't find them anymore and they want to hear them. So, what they would do is they'd play them every day and a half, so they'd build this format called jamming. They'd play the songs that tested well, they'd burn the crap out of them, and then the format lives and then it dies in a year or two. Because the very thing that made them special. >> The inaccessibility or the- >> They played it way too much and way too often, and people got sick of it. So, we have several different rotations and philosophies we use here, but if it sold well, and let's say it has 17 million views on YouTube. I'll look at that. If I see how many people stream it, I can get a sense of what is working and what people want to hear. And a lot of the ones are the same. I can just tell you right now, Hotel California, Dream On, Sweet Motion, Sweet Home Alabama, I mean these songs no matter how many tests you do. >> [LAUGH] >> They are always in the top ten. >> Right. >> And you can't play them too much because people love them. And there are other ones, the weird ones, that I have in what I call a lunar rotation. >> Like Green Team Rain? >> That we play very rarely, but we play it. And he would be like what, where, why did I hear Stairway to Heaven, and now I'm hearing Folsom Prison by Johnny Cash? Because it just works, I don't know the reason but it's a human reason. >> I'm interested in the way that you look at data, and I'm interested in what you think about modern sort of contemporary commercial radio stations' use of data analytics. Specifically, calling somebody up and playing them ten seconds of the new whatever pop single and asking the person to make a determination very quickly, thumbs up, thumbs down. What do you think of analytics [CROSSTALK] >> I think anywhere you can get data, you should get it. But I think where it gets, I don't think there's anything wrong with the data, I think it's how it's applied. And I think you can make everything really homogenized. And so when I hear radio, and Nashville, in my opinion, used to be a wonderful, great radio market. But then, as I was, and it wasn't just Nashville, it's all over. They just became, what I, sweeper song, sweeper song, sweeper song, it was just a jukebox. And, well that's what people want, and with the new people meter, and how they measure rating, and it used to be the diary method. And now it's people metered. You tend to play for what works to your strengths so it generates revenue. I'm sort of a radio is a product-driven business. If the product is good, the revenue will come. So I kind of have to trust that. And we don't have the resources to do tons of research. It's very expensive. But I think research now is getting much less expensive. It's all over, how much data do you want? I can make anything look good. That doesn't mean we should create a format around it. >> [LAUGH] >> You know? >> Right. So, there are very high cum low TSL formats. And high cum is just the numbers of bodies. And low time spent listening formats. And then there's the other way around. So, it just depends on who you're trying to reach. [MUSIC] >> I want to talk to you a little bit about streaming. I will admit that when I'm in my car, I will listen to your radio station on the terrestrial band, but in my house I don't get a good signal so I stream it over your app. >> Well, we appreciate that, because we're not the biggest station around. >> Right, and so I wanted to ask you a little bit about what your attitude is towards your streaming listeners versus your terrestrial listeners. And where you sort of apply your energy in terms of I mean, do you want to grow your terrestrial signal, is that a priority for you, are you mostly focused on the online thing [CROSSTALK] >> Well for me, there's sort of, there's one product we simulcast exactly what's on the air on our stream. That doesn't mean we can't have ancillary products that have also run some other stations that have my players. So you can create your own station if you have jocks with it, you don't have to have jocks. You can create, I only want to hear Led Zeppelin today or Billy Joel today, or whatever. You can customize it anyway you want, so there's that option. We don't offer that yet, but I think we're going to get to that point where people can sort of pick and choose. And really, it's just a product of us not being large. There's great things about being a small station in a big market, and there's some down sides. One of the down sides of being small in a big market is we have huge amount of online listening, which is great, but it's very expensive. >> Right. >> To stream. So, we kind of get into that whole thing that's going on with songwriters now. So, the reality is, we kind of, as broadcasters, we get lumped in with streaming providers or the people that stream music, but it's a completely different thing. >> Mm-hm. >> And there's just not a lot of money there. And so, it's very expensive to put on for us with royalties and streaming and hosting and all of that. So we try to supplement that by getting sponsors if we can. But it's very difficult. >> Yeah, I hope that you can- >> So songwriters aren't the only ones not making money on streams is what I'm saying. [LAUGH] >> Well, yes, let's go there actually. I wonder what your take is on the Fair Play Fair Pay Act. >> Well, you know. >> Which maybe you should explain what that is [CROSSTALK] >> We're on the radio, we call it a performance tax, our side. Everybody else says, hey, wait a minute, this is our material [CROSSTALK]. >> Mm-hm. >> But the gentleman, and I apologize because I don't remember his name, but I was actually at Belmont last week at this panel they have, the Judiciary Committee. Belmont's not a cuss word yet, is it? [LAUGH] >> No, we're going there. >> [LAUGH] Okay, but so when they got everybody in the room, and it was more for show, I think, than anything like those typically are when people from Washington come out here. because really inside the Beltway, it's a whole other planet. But we want to make sure that radio broadcasting is not lumped in with everything else, okay? And the reason is this. The guy who wrote All About That Bass was one of the first people to speak. Great guy, he's from here. And I almost went up and hugged him afterwards because radio did, we kind of get thrown in with Pandora and Spotify and all these streamers, and it's like wait a minute. And he says look, my song played 150 million times online, and I got 5 grand or whatever. Completely agree, not right. That doesn't mean that everybody needs to keep coming to the radio to get the dough. Because if we keep each killing other, nobody's going to win and we're all going to be in trouble. We pay a lot of money for, but we were used to paying songwriters in particular, okay, hundreds of thousands of dollars a year, and they should get that. Because songwriters cannot fill venues, they're in the shadows, nobody knows who they are. The performers, that's where I kind of draw the line, that's different, okay. I think at the committee hearings that were online, in DC, someone said well, and I don't want to call out this group by name but a very, very successful country act, and they said well, they only made $1,500 from online streams. And I on the other side am going poor group. They only made $143,000,000 last year. So we just had to keep it in perspective. I'm a big proponent of paying the creators of music. I always have been and always will be. And being in Nashville, I feel even more strongly because of that. They were the ones sitting on a beach, or in a car, or wherever when it came into their heads. It's their property, in my opinion. When you sign that over to a label or to somebody else, I can't help that. We write the checks, what the PROs do with them, I don't know how that's getting distributed. All I know is I write a lot of money To those three buildings across my street, a lot every month. Which isn't easy to do when you're a small business like everyone else. >> Right, you're taking about BMI, ASCAP, and CSAC. >> Yeah. So I think it's just a matter of working it out. We need to work it out. I just want songwriters to know that broadcasting isn't making a lot of money on streaming either. We're not, and I'd be happy to show anyone. [LAUGH] So, now that the people performing those acts in my opinion you made your dough. You filled those concert venues. You sold all that bling. You got to do all that stuff and if you didn't do a good job keeping track of your dough when you were hot, because we all go through hot streaks don't come asking for it now. So, that's the side that sort of I am on, and it's a different side, and I get that. >> Yeah. >> But I am a true believer of we just need to work it out, we just do. >> Right. >> And I think we will. I just want to make sure the songwriters are on the right side of the table. I think they should come over toward the guys who've been paying them all this time, because this guy who wrote It's All About That Bass said one thing. All I know is when my song plays on the radio I make money. When it plays online I don't make anything, and I about hugged him because that's the truth. So, I just think they're looking at the wrong people to pay their bills. >> That's interesting and I like what you say about these sort of alliances and disagreements that are happening now between people who historically have been friendly towards each other. >> Yeah. >> In the business. For example, I respectfully disagree with your stance on the performing rights payments as many musicians do, and I want to ask you too. >> But that doesn't mean we can't do something. >> Right, no. Absolutely. >> because that's kind of where I am. I think there are many people on my side and probably your side. Look, it's all or nothing, and there's guys on my side who say don't pay them a penny. I'm like wait a minute. Cooler heads will prevail and something will work out, but it's not just our business. >> That's true. >> There's copyright issues all over this country right now, and intellectual property issues, and all of those things. So, I just want in particular songwriters, and performers to know we're not the enemy here. >> Right. >> We're not, and people still discover their music over the radio no matter what anybody says. >> I think that's fantastic. So what do you say to somebody like me or other people and bands who didn't write songs who get radio air play and they have a hit on the radio? And I might say to you well, the United States is one of the only developed countries in the world that doesn't pay royalties. And I know there are historical reasons for this and so how do you explain this? >> Well. This goes way back to whoever started this in the first place. >> Yeah. >> I don't think it was Marconi, but I don't know if he was playing tunes, but our side of it would be all the exposure, all the mentions. There was as ad in the paper we took out the day that came to Nashville that the National Association of Broadcasters took out. That a Sony exec or somebody said that without radio this country act is nothing. It's a nobody. So, what we do has extreme value too, and that's all it is. You believe what you do has a lot of value, and so do we. And so we can put dollars and cents to that. We can say look, if we charged advertising for this this was what we can do. So a lot of stations have given up that. They don't want to pay those royalties anymore so they go to talk. Well, an FM or AM band of just talking would be kind of boring. >> Yeah. >> So, that's what I mean about there has to be. If we don't work something out we're both going to be in trouble. >> I couldn't agree more. >> So there's just a lot of posturing going on. I don't know how long that typically takes. I'm not a Washington guy, but it was an odd meeting last week because a lot of us like each other. >> That's what I mean, yeah. >> We just gotta figure it out. >> Right, right. >> And I really don't have the solution, but I think being willing to at least discuss it is the first thing to do. And I don't think the government ought to be involved at all. I think we ought to get the principles involved, and say part of it is, and I completely agree with BMIS, ASCAP, and CSAC. From there point of view is like how do you? I can't work out a deal with 1,500 separate artists and 1,500 separate song writers for the 1,500 titles I play. It would be crazy. >> It's impossible. >> And then everybody would be like hey, I played this on that tune why aren't you paying me? So I don't anybody really wants to open up that Pandora's box, but I think there's got to be a way that's easy for the artists and songwriters to receive funds without building brand new skyscrapers in town personally. because some of their dough is going to that and that's not our deal. We write the checks. >> Right. >> Another person I'd spoken to said that he always says to musicians who say I'm not receiving my royalty payments from streaming services or whoever. Well, who is standing in between you and the radio stations or you and your PR? Take a look at that. >> You have your opinions and I have mine, but I want particularly song writers, but others as well to know we're your friend, and we shouldn't let anybody come between what we've done and what has been successful for years and and years. >> Right. >> And I think that's partly where we're coming from. It's like wait a minute, why now? Is it because there's more attorneys in the world. I mean, what is going on? And if there hasn't been fair compensation ever let's get to the root of what that was. Were there some bad deals with labels, sure. That doesn't mean it should be the precedent. >> Right, well I think though what's going on is that record sales are in a downward spiral, so musicians and labels and everybody is looking for other- >> And some independent labels talked, nd I feel for those guys too. I mean hey, they're taking a risk. I get it. We're doing the same thing, we're a small business too. So, I just don't know where it's going to fall. I think primarily it's all about this streaming thing. The business model got messed up. I don't know if we need to thank Steve Jobs for that or that nobody's printing vinyl anymore, but nobody's making money anymore and everybody wants some. >> [LAUGH] Yes. >> So if we can kind of get out of the I got screwed you owe me- >> Yeah. >> Part to what I bring to the table meaning performer or writer or radio is valuable and important. Let's keep the government out of the room and work it out if we can, and If they can help use with the framework great, but It's worked pretty well for 70, 80, 90 years until this whole digital thing came. And I would say that performers and song writers have a friend in radio when it comes to streaming because we're not making anything either. So, while streaming and the internet and all this new shiny stuff is great and all this it's such revenue growth and there's so much money in it. Yeah well, Facebook isn't making money, Pandora's never made the money, Sirius XM's never made any money. This is all publicly traded dollars we're talking about here. So, just because it's growing doesn't mean it's effective. Is it working? Is it driving people to my storefront where I sell earrings, or I sell lamp shades. That's what I want. Ca I get customers to your store? So maybe you and I should just work it out, [LAUGH]. >> I think we could do it. I really I would love to hear more about, you said something interesting earlier about how terrestrial license fees are less expensive for you than streaming. And could you say a little bit more about that and explain how that works out for you. >> Well, they're not less expensive, well, I guess they, it's a percentage of our revenue. It was that way for a long time and then in the 90s and early 2000s got away from that, it was kind of a flat fee, and the smaller stations were getting killed, because wait a minute- >> Can you explain that for our learners? >> Can we just have this be a percentage? If we do well, you do well, that's all we ask. And it did go back to that, thank goodness. So I think that's helped a lot. Now if we can just get our arms around this digital piece, because this group the copywrite royalty board set rates. I don't know if they're just throwing darts against the wall or what. But in comparison to the overall terrestrial it's a lot more expensive for a lot less result. And by that let's say it could be last month we had 39,000 people with some money. Line to our station. Okay, it costs me more to do that than it did to play it over the air. Now when that's one to one, relatively accurate measurement, okay, but over the air. And I think the gentlemen who wrote it's all about that base was pointing out to, when the song gets played over the radio It gets exposure. And then people have to go buy it somewhere. So that's how he can make his money, okay. On top of us paying him for the right to play his song on our station, which we do. So it's point to multi-point. When I'm listening to a stream, I'm pretty much getting one person's hearing this song. An impression they call it, I think, in SoundExchange. When it gets played over the radio, it could be, one to 10,000 people could be listening, and probably are. And that might want to go get that record, hey go buy that song. That's good. I don't think anybody's been able to figure out how to monetize this other way of doing. >> Right. >> because there's just nothing to >> Charge them for it [LAUGH]. >> Right, right. Well the name of the class that you're speaking to actually is called- >> By charging them for it a physical piece of vinyl or a cassette or something, I don't mean that's it's not valuable of course. >> Yes, yes. I understood, yes. >> This course is called Understanding the Music Business, what is music worth? So the course I'm going to speak to in a lot of our conversation has actually been about how value is assigned. Anyway, but I wanted to ask you in the same way passed the other duties or do you have any overarching viewpoints about the way that value is being assigned to music, right now? >> I wish I knew more about a lot of that. I don't. I understand, the point the views of folks. Look, this is mine. I'm not going to compensate it for, and the label, and then on the other side, it's, well, people are calling us all the time asking, will you play this? I'm damned if I do. I'm damned if I don't. And I'm not in the weeds that much about that, and I almost prefer not to, because it doesn't look pretty. I think there are lots of principles involved and the government, and from the performers standpoint and from a songwriter's standpoint, and from the stream provider's standpoint. And I'd rather, I'm just a small guy trying to do his best, I'm not out to screw anybody, we're just trying to. We're just a small business like the ones we call on every day. >> Yeah. >> Corporately, that's different. The bigger, giant groups who are also not making any money probably, well they might be making money but they paid way too much for the radio stations. I think this is all going to kind of settle out one day. And I would be very happy if there were a lot more independent owners, that can work with independent musicians, independent song writers. And let's just get back to the ground and figure out. Instead of letting the two or three corporate folks dictate everything in the world that goes on. That we have to live with. And we do, it's part of the deal, I get it, but it doesn't make it right. >> Another question that I'm asking everybody that I speak to is one that I think that you're invested in already because of everything you've said about your business but what is your attitude about what, on a local level, are learner's are going to be from all over the world and one of the thing's I ask everybody is what can people do in their local communities everywhere? To support good music, good. >> Gosh, people are just so vastly different and parts of the country are so vastly different. In some places music pockets are great, in other places it's like. And I think that's what makes it hard for some labels sometimes to find these >> Where did this person come from? They all didn't come from nationally televised talent shows. [LAUGH] >> True. >> That's not the reality of what it is. You could probably do a whole show on that. >> Don't get me started on that. [LAUGH] >> And the sort of forgotten folks and that is the challenge and I think that's one of the reasons I love being in radio is because >> Folks like you have group [INAUDIBLE] Would probably love to be on the radio, I would hope. And so, we can bring that and bring people out of obscurity to having other people appreciate their music. And that can come from anywhere. So, again, I don't have a really good answer for that other than Nashville is [COUGH], And I've only been coming here for three and half years, is just so different than anywhere else. Where else can you have, on the same night there were three giant shows all going on at once. And they were all full. >> Yeah. >> Most, the place where I come from, if you've got a show like Don Henley or somebody, it'd be once a year, maybe. Yeah. And when I was growing up you'd have to drive and hour and a half to get there. >> So, but, now it's the era of the cover bands too, so, but I think that's a good thing quite honestly, because it keeps, what I believe is the greatest period of music alive. So, I think... And you're in one. >> Yeah, [LAUGH] I am. >> I gotta tell you. There's an audience for everything. I believe any radio station, any band, any musician, any songwriter, has reach. We call it reach. We reach a certain type or group of people in a certain type or area >> And that has value, and that the challenge is to figure out how to monetize that. >> Yes. >> Is there a way I could make it worth my trip to drive 200 miles to pick up $50? It costs me more to drive there to play than it did to play. But that's my investment. For my group. >> Right. [CROSSTALK] >> And for whenever. So I certainly seen it and it's helped me understand that lot more in here because I think we need to listen little more too. >> Yeah, well and what I'm finding and I wonder what your take is this is that people who Bet on emotional resonance. Or a personal touch. Or something that is not seen sort of prepackaged and mediated. Wins a lot in this environment. At least on an independent level. >> Yeah. They're just so dramatically different, it's as different as you being a hippy radio versus a bigger corporate station, which is next door. >> Right. >> But the environment is completely different, and I think it's the same with these artists, no matter whether it's a venue play act, or the type of people that you're exposed to. But most of the songwriters I've talked to, and I haven't talked to a bazillion, but the ones I have talked to, they just know when they know. [COUGH] That's kind of how I was. I thought this would do well because it was missing. It was absent. I'm not doing anything new. I'm doing radio the way we used to do it, and the reason I'm doing it the way we used to do it is because I don't believe people and the humanness of them have changed. Business world around them has and the world has but people are the same. And I think it's the same when you're writing a song or performing the song. They're the same. The artist get sick of playing, I'm sure the last thing The Eagle's want to do is play Hotel California, One of These Nights, and Take it Easy again, but the people that are there that paid good money to see him. That's what they want to see. So a great example is, I was just in Chicago at Earth, Wind and Fire at the Ascend Theatre. It was like two or three days after it opened. Which is an awesome venue, by the way. Like we need another venue in Nashville. But I'm glad we do. It's awesome. >> It is awesome. And they came out together and played some songs together, Chicago and Earth on Fire. And then Earth, Wind, and Fire was on they played a couple of their hits and then they kind of played four or five in a row that were just their new ones, and things they want to try and people went to the bathroom >> [LAUGH] >> They went to get something to eat. >> Awe [LAUGH] >> And then Shining Star comes back on. >> Yeah [LAUGH] >> Their all back in there. >> Yeah. >> That's just the reality of the way it is. And so the artist is going well, hey. If I don't at least play some new stuff, how are they ever going to like the new one? >> Right. >> And I don't want to keep regurgitating this song that I can play in my sleep over and over again. But- >> Right. >> So, you just have to understand why they're there. >> Yeah. >> And I think artists get that. They know. And you know what works. >> Yeah. >> I'm going to open with this, I'm going to close with this. Works every time. >> We have to do this one. Yeah. >> because if we don't, I'm going to get yelled at. >> Yeah. >> It's just, and that's the way we are. We have a request line, we have a place where people can text us a request, but they're requesting the same one's. >> [LAUGH] >> They just- >> They want to hear. >> Hey, can I hear Take it Easy? Can I hear Hotel California? There's a surprise. >> Right. >> I just played two days ago and I gotta play it again, okay. And that's okay. [LAUGH] >> They were just those iconic tunes that have that impact. Not everybody can write Happy Birthday. [MUSIC] >> I want to ask you another question that you may not want to answer and if you don't, we [INAUDIBLE] >> You don't have to include it but, part of the mythology, at least in my mind and the mind of a lot of music fans that I know, of radio in the heyday of the 1970s in the rock and roll era, has to do, number one some of the things we've already talked about with the personalities of the DJ's. Before that maybe the pirate radio stations that came out. There was this sort of free wheeling thing. But also involved scandals every now and then with Payola. >> Yeah. >> And I wonder if you could say a word about Payola and the way that it exists in the modern era. >> Aren't those the guys trying to money off of us now? They want more money from us that used to pay us to play their stuff? >> I don't know, you tell me. >> Under the table. >> Yeah, you tell me. >> That was a weird time. I knew of a few guys that I found out subsequently later that were getting that, but back in the day, when this, music was out, I don't think people were getting cars, and God knows what was happening. It was all guys. There was no, it was this incestuous close, relationship, and I think it is probably a miracle some of these artists were successful at all. If you didn't happen to be with this certain guy that had this certain connection that had this That was on the take that would play your tunes. I think that is real. I think that absolutely happened. I don't think that it hasn't been the case in a really long time. We sign our plugola and payola forms. We make sure our folks don't do any of that. But there's just it's easier now because there's not a lot of dough to go around. >> [LAUGH] >> In this business like there use to be. But I think there's a lot of cool things that are happening. I'm going to get off the topic and So I shouldn't talk about that. But I know that my opinions are not maybe reflective of the National Association of Broadcasters' so I'm going to at least state that upfront. >> Okay. >> But I am on their board. So but that whole sort of scandalous, free wheeling time there was a lot of charm about that time and then there were bad things. There were probably a lot of artists that got screwed there because Bob Seeger's label had the inside track on this so God knows what in fighting went on that we don't even know about. But I'm sure there was, the haves and have nots. So it's so weird because I was just this guy Just wanted to be a disc jockey when he was 13. And was on the air until I was 30. In a ten by ten room just singing along. That's all I did. And talked to people. And now, it's big complex industry. And labels are moving overseas. And the PROs aren't treating us fair and the radio stations aren't giving us enough dough, and the streaming providers are making out like bandits on our creative product, it's just so big and complicated. >> Right, do you think it's a more fair or level playing field now than you think it was in the swinging days? >> Not for little guys, I think it's tough on >> Startup musicians, startup songwriters, and startup radio stations. because I gotta tell you, there aren't a lot of me left. >> I know. >> Which I think is a shame, and especially in bigger markets. When I was looking at stations to buy, I always wanted to own my own station. Until the 90s, when people were paying 25 times cashflow, they were paying outrageous amounts. And that's why Cumulus, which everybody has read about them being in trouble, and I don't know how iHeart's going to do with all of this, and there are some just, people went crazy. In typical consolidation, and I didn't want to own a station then. But then once things started getting back to reality, they're like why would you want to go into a market where there is Clear Channel, Cumulus, or iHeart, >> Southcentral and all those big broadcasters and I'm like, because I think that now's the perfect time to do it. Nobody's doing what I'm doing and until we get back to doing what I'm doing and that's working with the mom and pop's businesses that are trying to get their name out, get people in their store >> Radio would be much better off when we get back to that, in my personal opinion. >> I couldn't agree more and I'm a fan of what you do and I appreciate your time today. We've been speaking with Tony Richards who is the owner and founder of Hippie Radio 945 FM in Nashville and also available online. >> Absolutely, on your mobile device, on your iPad's, any other >> Potential. So we appreciate you coming by. >> Thank you so much. >> Thank you it was fun. >> I really enjoyed it. [MUSIC] [APPLAUSE]
