So, Miriam, we have been watching this scene about never waste a good talent. And I think, well, what we've learned is that many people think this is an awful video with a lot of power play and higher, even sexist what's happening in this video. I think you agree on that. >> Yes, I agree, yeah hopefully in real life situation is not is bad as we just saw. >> Yeah, let's compare our own practices indeed to what we've seen in the video. Did you have a similar experience as a PhD student that's the power play can play a role, did you observe that in your organization? >> Well, not the power play directly but I think what is happening here is that Professor gives the students a lot of extra tasks. Which can be on the one hand, very great opportunity and very interesting and exciting. But also can give a lot of pressure on the workload of the PhD students. But yeah, in some cases it can happen that you're afraid to say no because of the hierarchy and because you're new and you want to prove yourself. >> Yeah, that's something that I recognize that sometimes I say in this video, you do see in a very exaggerated way. The fact that many senior researchers and I do this myself as well ask of junior researchers to be involved in all kinds of tasks. And to offer them a bit of teaching opportunities to offer them opportunities to have talks with colleagues in the field. Which is also being offered here, which is initially of course, a very good idea and it's an opportunity to further your own career. And on the other hand as a senior researcher are not always aware of the fact that it comes with responsibilities. And sometimes you are kind of over demanding to junior researchers and what you can expect from them. And that's where to pause this and what is a reasonable expectation and whatnot. Is something I think that many people will recognize but do not know where to set boundaries. So, within my organization, for example, that I used to work in there was a clear regulation from the part of the Research Institute and they said. In the first years of a PhD, you can ask them to do a bit of teaching. With a maximum of percentage 10% of their appointment, for example, and in the final years of their PhD. You should leave them alone because they should be able to funnel and to focus on their PhD thesis. So there was a clear rule actually, that would prohibit you from exploiting your PhD student there too much. Do you have something like a similar experience you can share or another example? >> Well, I think rules are one thing and they can be very useful. But I think it's also very good to keep the conversation going as a supervisor with the PhD about being overburdened or not. So you can see how it goes and then adjust the workloads or not. So I think saying in all cases, the last two years you cannot teach might be a bit too too strict. But yeah, I think you can check how it's going and then see well, if there is room for a bit more teaching. >> Did you feel you were working in an environment where these things could be discussed as is kind of opposed to what was happening in this video? >> Yeah, I think the later I got in my career, the more I learned that you can talk about those things. But in the beginning, I found it very scary, I was also a bit impressed by the scientific world and how smart everyone was and how much work everybody was doing. So I think in the beginning what was very useful for me was to talk with other people in the same situation and discuss problems you had or how to do certain things. >> A good suggestion you talked to your peers about it and get some examples of how you or advise how you can handle with that. And also a good example I think, in a positive way how you can open up and dare to address these issues. And I think for people more in senior positions like myself, it's always good to know that there is always a hierarchical position. So sometimes you don't feel like it yourself that there is this hierarchy. But still, if I ask something to someone they might indeed always interpret this as this is somebody senior, I should do this. And then I have this experience as well with a colleague of mine who was expressing his concerns. That he felt his appeal continuously when I would send emails in the weekend. And I didn't realize because, well, I now and then work a bit in the weekend as well, and I don't mind but he minded. And so I learned to restrict myself a bit in this and not to put too heavy demand on others by sending them continuous requests. And now I put on the send later button a bit more often in the outlook mail that I have. And this helps because then I know that I'm not burdening someone in their free time and that they feel the need to do something. So higher he is always there, and I think that's a good lesson to learn, even though in this video it was, of course way beyond what was reasonable. But I think that many supervisors will recognize this. They take the opportunity when they have it, and they don't realize what impact this can have on junior researchers. The idea that your professor is always working 24/7 is of course not true, but that's an image that we'd like to uphold apparently. >> Yeah >> There is this other aspect I think in this video, it's about does PhD desperately needs feedback on her thesis work, and she doesn't get any. >> [LAUGH] No. >> He might have taken a look at it, it's somewhere on his desk but he's actually looking for something else. And at the moment that she asked for explicit feedback, he says I'll have to read it again. But my general comment is and this is also something, of course, that can improve greatly. Take the time for your PhDs and juniors to actually schedule in your calendar that you're going to read it and also remit it in time. Don't let it lay there for weeks, I got the impression it was laying there for quite a while. >> Yeah. >> How did that work in your experience? >> Well, what I personally liked is that we had these meetings every month. We had a meeting, project meetings and then we discussed what I was doing what everybody was doing. And a week before the meeting, I would send what I was working on, and I received feedback and we discussed it in real life, which was very useful. And then we also set goals for the next month. We also have more long term goals but well, yeah deadlines are pushable in a academia, but it was really nice to have a regular meeting. So you know what's expected and so there is also a few on what you're doing. >> And people were keeping the promises in these meetings, so they will not continually postponed or? >> No, the meetings were there, but yeah it happens a lot that deadlines were postponed, but that was also from my side. Because in practice yeah, many projects take a lot more work than you expect beforehand. So but yeah, and we were also with five people, so there were always at least three people present, so >> Yeah, it doesn't sound outdated more and more in academia, we are dealing with teamwork. And in the video, we saw someone who was actually completely depending on one person. And couldn't finish because there was no comment or feedback from this professor. And it helps if you work in teams because then it's not only the professor who is giving feedback. But other professors or co-promoters or team members can also give you feedback. And then you're not too much relying on this one person and I think that's in general very good idea. It doesn't excuse, of course, the attitude that this supervisor took, I think this person really needs some time management. But on the other hand, it is also very helpful to have more perspectives of various people at the same time working on the same project. So yeah, that also sound good, >> And in that way it's going to also happen that if someone is very busy, another person can take over, yeah. >> Yeah, that's also sounds like a good idea. So if we would advise this PhD and the supervisor, I think we have some very clear ideas on this. And I hope that this will also help you a bit in, well, your projects and come up with some own ideas and suggestions.